kimkali: (Default)
[personal profile] kimkali
This was supposed to be a quick comment on a friends journal...

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Having watched the whole debacle (Celebrity Big Brother, but specifically that argument), with much pause and rewinding, and double checking what was said...

Jade isn't racist. She didn't actually say anything racist. The clash between Jade and Shilpa was one of class, and Shilpa was in the wrong far more than Jade. Shilpa was the first to make personal insults, and her insults were far more scathing than Jade's. Jade's just loud, and ignorant, and the throw away "Shilpa Poppadom" thing the result of searching for a word and not finding it, so finding a low-grade insult instead - comparable to who ate all the pies.

Danielle is racist. It was Danielle who said racist comments, including "she should F off home". But that seems forgotten. Danielle was the one who was laughing during the arguement. It has also been Danielle who throughout CBB has made the occasional surprisingly cruel, nasty, racist etc comments about the others. I really do not like her.

That Jade has been so torn apart by the press I find worrying. Disgusting really. Miss-acusations conceal real hate. It was an argument that got out of hand, and Jade got a little clumsy with her language, where she had been trying very hard, and clearly doing so, being aware of her ignorance and trying to use the right phrases.

I'm not a Jade fan. But this is akin to someone crying rape - false accusations make it harder to spot and address real cases. Shouting about something that is not there conceals what is.

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Date: 2007-01-24 11:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cookwitch.livejournal.com
This is why I am glad that Ms Lloyd lost her six figure modelling contract with Bennetts Bike Insurance. Ha! Jade is stupid and opens her mouth without thinking. Danielle knows exactly what she's doing.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimkali.livejournal.com
~nods~
Danielle sat there, watching and listening, smirking, then made the racist comments that The Media (tm) seem to have attributed to Jade because, well, because she is Jade.

Apparently Jade has been invited to visit India, which I think is A Good Thing, and hope will at least shut The Media up if not get them to print retractions.

Jade is interesting - so exposed, and learning all the time because her celebrity has opened doors. I think she is smart, just not well educated. There is a lot os classism that does not seperate the two.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madwitch.livejournal.com
Jade is going to visit India because her agent has told her to.

Same way he told her to cry a lot, and mostly do interviews with people who are his clients as well. As they'll be nicer.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madwitch.livejournal.com
And two other contracts, it seems. Ooops.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deerfold.livejournal.com
I'm not sure which argument is "that argument" - there seemed to be a few.

Assuming it's the stock cube one, although Shilpa was a little abrupt with an accusation of using them Jade was very unpleasant when Shilpa did try and apologise. I don't think Jade was racist, but I do think she behaved very unpeasantly.

Oh course, none of us was there live and there could be planty more on both sides that wasn't shown.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimkali.livejournal.com
Oh there were a lot of little tensions, but "the stock cube" one became blazing.

Jade wanted Shilpa to admit she was wrong, but didn't let it go when she shoudl have. Shilpa responded in kind, where she could also have let it go but didn't, and then it was Shilpa who started being personal.

The exchanges, and how the others responded, was fascinating! Locked in this bubble... those two really needed to let go and shout at each other, and if they had both stayed in I expect they would have continued talking it through and been okay with each other, if not friendly.

You're very right - it is easier to sit and observe what we are shown and make judgements. What surprises me is how so many people concluded from what was televised that Jade was racist.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-01-24 04:12 pm (UTC)
chrisvenus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrisvenus
I have to admit I haven't gone over it with pause and rewind as you sound like you have but my impression of it was that Shilpa sounded like she was making a silly point. Jade was out of order mostly in my opinion because she started being very aggressive. I mostly recall her shouting down Shilpa and so on and doing it with Danielle and Jo sitting watching. I wouldn't say it was racist because she clearly didn't do it because of race. She might have used race related remarks but that's just schoolground insults, to be honest.

Basically I dislike Jade for this incident because her and her cronies were just schoolground bullies. Jo and Danielle didn't say anything and Jade I think was playing up to them to a certain extent. Danielle I more got the impression was following Jade's lead, possibly in the idiotic way of somebody who doesn't know where the line is but following none-the-less. I do admit though that I haven't seen any of her other racist remarks so I might think differently if I'd seen a bit more of it.

Just thought I'd share my views. :)

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] misterfallen.livejournal.com
I don't know about racism, but jealousy over the fact that Shilpa actually has talent probably sparked a lot of it. Out of all the people being nasty to her, only Jo had done something of even vague merit, and that was some time ago.

I don't know about Jade, but Jackiey certainly seems to possess some cunning: I read in the Times last week that she'd used her daughter's fame to get her flat done up on one reality show and got £30,000 worth of plastic surgery done for free on another one. Given Jade's rumoured to be worth something in the region of 8 million quid, that's a bit cheeky.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-01-24 12:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deerfold.livejournal.com
That's another thing. I think Jackiey *was* being racist to Shilpa - refusing to *try* and pronounce someone's name correctly despite being told it's offending the person in question! I wonder if this behaviour - and feud contributed to Jade attempting to be "loyal" to her mother after her (to Jade) upsetting eviction.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-01-24 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] narnee.livejournal.com
Jackiey had tried repeatedly, and failed, to pronounce Shilpa's name; she was clearly frustrated by it, and then became upset because she was embarrassed when Shilpa wouldn't allow the nickname "honey" (or any other nickname) instead. During her eviction interview, she said she often had problems with names, and basically proved that.

That isn't racist. It would have been racist -- albeit "positive" racism -- if Jackiey had acted any differently when encountering a name she found difficult to pronounce simply because Shilpa is Indian. It would have been racist (or at least xenophobic) if she had refused to call Shilpa by her name because within British culture she should use an Anglosized name, and it would have been racist if she had said she should change it because having an Asian name like Shilpa made her sound like a terrorist. (Obviously, those are examples and I don't agree with any of it.)

If Shilpa was a Jewish girl from Israel named Tamar, and Jackiey failed to pronounce that, would it have made her anti-Semitic? Of course not. Jackiey may be (and certainly is) ignorant and uneducated and immature, but that doesn't make her racist.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cookwitch.livejournal.com
She's had plastic surgery? Dear lord, what did she look like before??

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deerfold.livejournal.com
;)

I think it was on her breasts and fortunately mostly not visible. What is it with all these people? As soon as they're famous they get implants.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] misterfallen.livejournal.com
A bulldog's arse.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimkali.livejournal.com
There was a lot of contempt.
It is also worth remebering how much contempt Jade has recieved, very publically, since her first BB experience. Shilpa it seems has never dealt with conflict like this, especially not with raised voices.
It really did not need to happen, and yet was inevitable. I rather expect they will talk post CBB, and clear things at least between each other.
Danielle I hope will fade to obscurity.

As for Jackiey getting free stuff... I don't see anything wrong with it, and it certainly is not at all unusual for money to be more unnecessary when you have enough of it, expecially when mixed with some influence, some use, like celebrity.

Leo however, oh dear. He really took "But I'm a celebrity!" to a new, lower level.

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Date: 2007-01-24 12:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lazy-hoor.livejournal.com
While we're talking semantics (were we?!) I feel I must point out that the creature in your icon is an ape not a monkey.

;p

I can't really comment on anything else, it just made me laugh what Kathryn Flett said and then the announcement that Jade wants to go to India.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-01-24 12:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimkali.livejournal.com
Is it?
~laughs~
That's a cropped and reformatted science poster for lab workers. Slightly worrying. Perhaps it should be "Know your species".

(no subject)

Date: 2007-01-24 12:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dryriser.livejournal.com
But she said something nasty to someone who was foreign! She must be teh racist!!1!

To be honest, I'd managed to miss out on this bloody programme until this cropped up, when curiosity got the better of me. After a somewhat cursory investigation, I have to admit, I tend to agree with you. (Much as I don't particularly like Jade, either). It seems that if minority status *could* be an issue, then minority status *must* be the issue these days, no matter if you just happen to disklike someone because you think they're an arsehole.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-01-24 12:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madwitch.livejournal.com
Whilst I agree with you about the racism thing, there is no doubt that Jade is a very nasty bully. The only reason it's come to the fore now is because racism claims can be added to it, something that couldn't be done with her last two victims as they were a middle class white girl and a fat bloke. She also, mistakenly it seems, believed that the GBP loved her and she could do what she liked and we'd all laugh and go 'Oh, that Jade, she's such a card'. This is why she's doing the sobbing remorse now.
She really isn't as stupid as everyone thinks. Yes, poorly educated. Yes, a bit dim. But when it comes to PR and her career, sharp as you like. Well, usually. But usually she has access to her agent and management, who spend a lot of time coaching her so she appears less vile. The latest interviews have been carefully scripted on her part, you could see that when she was asked questions on This Morning that were outside of her 'remorse' line. She is worth a lot to Endemol and C4 and her agent.

The racism thing is covering up the real issue where she is concerned, and that's bad. She is a bully. She will always find someone to bully, whatever show she does. I'd love to see her gone from the magazines and TV because I see no reason why she should profit from what is largely despicable behaviour, but she will continue to do so. And while the press lynching was bad, yes, I find it just as disturbing that some sections of the media are now trying to brush her bully tactics under the rug.

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Date: 2007-01-24 02:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ajva.livejournal.com
there is no doubt that Jade is a very nasty bully. The only reason it's come to the fore now is because racism claims can be added to it, something that couldn't be done with her last two victims as they were a middle class white girl and a fat bloke.

An excellent point.

I for one totally approve of her "press lynching" for being a bully. The racism issue, progressing in shades of grey as I believe it does, is more subjective and shouldn't be allowed to overshadow the fact that she is a bully, plain and simple. I see a number of people have been coming out the woodwork to attest that Jade was something of a bully at school - I believe it. Can you imagine how horrific it must have been for the people who were her victims then, watching her meteoric rise to fame and not inconsiderable fortune over the past five years? It must have seemed as if there were no justice in the world. For these people - and for many bullied everywhere - this is a delicious reckoning indeed.

I shed no tears for her. Let the gutter press rip into her; tomorrow she will be yesterday's news and will be able to rebuild her life.

Here's my hobbyhorse about bullying: As H put it so succinctly, "In Jade's mind, she's doing nothing wrong".

This, in a nutshell, is why there's no much bullying about. In practical terms, it is ill-defined. It is pointless to say, as Alan Johnson (Secretary of State for Education) did last week, that we should be promoting values of respect and tolerance in our classrooms. It is pointless because it does not tackle the root cause of bullying, which is to be found in human nature.

I've always thought that putting out leaflets or ad campaigns saying things along the lines of "Are you being bullied? Tell someone." or indeed "Could your child be being bullied?" is ultimately only tackling half the problem. Where are all the campaigns asking ...

"Do you find yourself exhibiting these sorts of behaviours? Gangbitching? Group violence (even mild) against an individual? Making fun or otherwise belittling someone in front a number of other people? Do these other people laugh along with you? Do you laugh along with friends when someone else is doing this? You too could be a bully."

OK, so my list is crude - but you get the idea. Jade is a bully and I despise her for it, but I feel sorry for her too because she has never learned any other form of interaction. Many bullying episodes grow out of proto-episodes that don't quite look like bullying, and then suddenly tip over into major bullying explosions - by which point the people who are doing it will have convinced themselves that they have justification, and are therefore not bullies. How do we get all individuals to recognise when such a situation is developing? A tall order, prehaps, but that is the nub of the matter.

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Date: 2007-01-24 01:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thesme-01.livejournal.com
Helo this is to say that I agree with you but my brane is full of high court judges and therefore I am unable to process. Anything. Not even peas.

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Date: 2007-01-24 04:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimkali.livejournal.com
Yeah but are you not processing peas cos they is green?

~squish~

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Date: 2007-01-24 03:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] perplexed-seal.livejournal.com
She is a bully, and that's been missed in the ongoing debate about whether it was racially motivated or not. I don't believe that the bullying, as I've seen on and in the media coverage around it, was racially motivated and it's unfortunate that the same media choose to trivialise it by focussing on it.

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Date: 2007-01-24 04:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimkali.livejournal.com
Indeed.
Given that the media has basically been bullying her for the past several years it is not surprising that is not the band-wagon they chose.

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Date: 2007-01-24 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lexx-uk.livejournal.com
Ah but the press had to attack Jade.......she was by far the most shouty and thus noticed of the attackers, even though her coments might not have been racist, she presented the biggest target to fire the broadside at.

Also people in general love making then braking then re-making other people. Thus the scandel of Jade will sell the tabloid grunge and pap to the GU. Jade was by far the most in the press of the attackers, launching a new sent or selling the sorry of her latest toil every other week.....this made her by far the most refreshing morsel.

In the short term she is damaged goods.....in the long term she will turn it around.

I do agree she was more petty than rasist though.

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